I think I cracked the code about modern Yuri fans (from otaku perspective)

[michifugu]

So I made a great tweet a few weeks ago replying to someone about why EN yuri fans seem so hostile & act like drama queens over anything (context: himetwt got mad at someone’s shoujo rec list for not including yuri). And I THINK I cracked the code guys. I still can’t believe I managed to come up with this, but here’s my tweet:


`` Modern yuri fans nowadays aren't coming from Otaku space & not entrenched in otaku culture, in fact most modern himes comes from stantwt/kpoptwt which riddled w/ toxicity & flamewars add that radfem & performative activism into the mix. you'd get the most insecure community. `` 
 

So yeah, as you can see, this explains a lot of modern EN yuri fan/hime behavior.
Because their behavior is so similar to K-pop stans & stan culture, not otaku culture. I’m not saying otaku culture doesn’t have toxicity, it does, but it’s framed really differently. For example, the whole Yuri vs BL thing? Basically nonexistent in JP otaku space. If it shows up in EN, it’s mostly a joke or pushed by annoying dudebros who just hate fujos.

These days you see himes LOVE picking fights with BL fans over nothing or dumb petty shit. And every time, it’s about “popularity” and “quantity” of fanworks. It always comes back to numbers and stats. That’s literally K-pop stan behavior: flamewars and fanbase fights over sales, streaming, charts, whatever.

In otaku spaces? You barely see that. Sure, someone might brag about sales, but it’s rare in BL & Yuri spaces. And even when toxic fujoshi/himes brag about numbers, it’s usually official sales charts, not fanwork counts. Like, I’ve never seen a fujoshi starting shit with another shipper over “fanwork quantity.” It’s usually “this ship is better” or “this ship sucks because A should be seme/uke,” etc.

The whole “being mad that their OTP didn’t make it into the top 3–5 on AO3” is… almost unheard of. But recently, especially after Covid, we’ve been seeing a lot of discourse about Yuri vs. BL, since BL content is way more popular than yuri. I get why people feel frustrated, trust me I’m a yuri fan myself, but blaming fujoshi for this is just bizarre. Why drag BL fans into this? They’re not the reason yuri gets less content—especially since they’re not even yuri fans to begin with.  Yuri isn’t as popular for a bunch of reasons, but it’s NOT because women are making yaoi, I promise you that as a veteran otaku.

What really annoys me is how some people try to repackage this in “progressive” language, when we all know what it’s actually about: they’re just salty their ship is losing and doesn’t get much content. That’s why we see this lame “fujos vs. himes” war that only exists in EN spaces. You don’t see this in JP, KR, or CN female otaku spaces. In Japan, for example, tons of yuri doujinka want to attend SupaComi (dominated by fujoshi) because they feel comfortable there. In China, yuri fans support BL fans because both groups face scrutiny from a homophobic government censorship. And in Korea, female BL and yuri fans stand in solidarity because of the virulent misogyny in their country. But in EN spaces? You see yuri fans mad at BL fans because… yaoi dominates fanfic spaces??? Give me a break.

I’ve lived through Hetalia, KHR, Madoka, Danganronpa ship war days. Rarely did anyone bring up fanwork counts as a “gotcha.” Even back in the 2010s when yuri fandom was tiny, we never blamed fujos for lack of content, we knew that wasn’t the reason. Fujos are BL fans, so why the hell drag them?

And don’t even get me started on the radfem angle. Radfems have always infested lesbian spaces, pushing puritanical vibes that make it feel like a Catholic commune. Not as bad now, but the roots are still there. You see the same in K-pop where radfems dunk on boyband fangirls. And now they’ve dragged that garbage into animanga fandoms, acting like fujoshi are Agents of Patriarchy oppressing women by making yaoi.

What really concerns me is how younger himes treat fandom like shareholders do stocks. Always thinking in terms of “numbers” and “popularity.” That’s not healthy at all. Judging your OTP’s worth by how many fics or fanart it has? That's unheal. People need to unlearn this K-pop style number-obsession.

The solution is simple: make the content yourself. If you can’t write or draw, commission someone. If you can’t do that, make meta, manifestos, AMVs, form communities, etc. There are so many ways to show love and enthusiasm for your faves. It’s not pointless, people often get into new works through fan content. Personally, I got into Avemuji after seeing people’s analyses online, and into Uma after seeing my favorite artist draw tons of fanart for it. Trust me: anything is better than endlessly malding over fanfic numbers.

Maybe because I was always a rareshipper/minor chara fan, I’m more chill about lack of content. But even then, I never picked fights or blamed other fans for liking the popular stuff.

Honestly, this behavior really explains why modern English yuri fans are like this: they were never entrenched in otaku culture. They came from K-pop stan culture. And that behavior seeps into other problems, like the rhetoric of “women who like male characters are traitors to women and patriarchal benefactor.” It ruins actual discussions about internalized misogyny. I’ve written about this before & how young lesbian fandom behavior is eerily close to “gold star lesbianism,” with its purity culture: acting like lesbians must never be “tainted” by men.

Overall, with that kind of baggage infesting your fandom, it's no wonder the communities become insecure as hell. 

That’s all. I don’t know if I articulated this perfectly, but I really hope things get better. And to any yuri fans out there who still think fujoshi are the enemy: please stop. Fujoshi aren’t your enemy. They aren’t the ones drawing corrective rape of yuri ships or enacting violence toward lesbians. They’re our sisters. We should direct our anger at the actual homophobic dudebros who harass both BL and yuri creators.
 

 

 

 

 

Comments

[geraineon]

Tbh, I think kpopstan behavior/radfem + performative activism has been seeping into EN fan spaces everywhere and I want to just sorta sit everyone down and go, "okay, it's not that deep, we're just playing with barbies and ken dolls." The most important thing is how people treat PEOPLE, and as you said, dunking on fujos is not gonna make the numbers they want go up.

(related to the whole non-EN fandom corners, iirc historically in JP bl and yuri were created from the same spaces and solidarity has always been strong).

the other thing that kinda makes me really uncomfortable is that I feel like all the loud people on twitter (no longer there myself so maybe it has changed) kept harping about the "purity" of their yuri ships and how "safe and wholesome" and it's all "green flags" (it's also happening to BL) and nothing makes me back away faster than a "green flag" ship that is guaranteed to be "wholesome".

I don't want wholesome! I want something like Gunjou!

[himejoshiheart]

especially when they ignore red flags and sanitize their yuri ship to be wholesome... do you remember that caitvi kinktober incident?

[lumemiruuuuuuuuuuu]

jst out of curiosity (as im prolly wrong but im curious), wasnt it the one where for some reason “toxic” dynamics were generally banned from kinktober and the rules abt caitvi said that vi must be a butch yes or yes and that putting her as more feminine was disrespecting her butch identity? srry if im wrong lol

[michifugu]

If I remember correctly, the CaitVi Kinktober accident was that they banned noncon & any form of CNC fanfic. And if someone did write CNC, they had to “clarify” in the fic that both characters consented to it. So basically they wanted the fanfic version of a PSA. Just ridiculous all around.

If they didn’t want toxic dynamics, they could’ve just specified the event was for vanilla sex. But instead they put in a broad kink event (and were even fine with certain “problematic” kinks like monster-fucking) while saying they didn’t want “manipulation” or “coercion” stuff. Which is dumb, especially when CaitVi is literally cops x criminal.

[himejoshiheart]

yeah, that one!

[geraineon]

I don't know that incident but just read the summary downthread by michifugu and ughhh -_-

[michifugu]

It just sucks all around. It doesn't help caitvi shipper tried to scorn everyone who disagree as "pedo" & 'rape" supporter when most people problem was how fucking ridiculous & ambiguous the rules are. Especially these people have such "shallow" perspective for taboo/transgressive kink, like nobody trust them for their judgment.

[michifugu]

Yeah I feel you lol.
Same here, even on Twitter most yuri communities just suck… constant discourse all the time. I remember recently there was drama about an English publisher releasing a yuri series that was “problematic,” or about a mangaka getting caught drawing problematic stuff. And then, of course, they turned around and blamed fujos again for the lack of yuri manga localization.
it's just so tiring lol

[geraineon]

The sheer lack of self-awareness!

I remember about four years ago, I was into Beidou x Ningguang from Genshin and started looking for fanart but the sheer number of "this is better than the BL ships!" sentiment on that tag soured me on that ship forever. People join you (the general you) in your love of things, not hatred of other things! I'd love to see more stuff like yuri ship manifestos! Or just plain celebrating with joy, all the yuri ships people love.

[michifugu]

Same, I really don't get why they need to making this rivalry of BL vs Yuri? like do they think people would be interested with their ship if they acted smug like that.....
Like, they could've supported a lot of yuri shippers by retweet/share their fanfic & fanarts or commissioning them instead they keep angry at fujoshi for making yaoi dominating a03 somehow

[himejoshiheart]

what was the yuri series? im curious

[michifugu]

it's Lilies Blooming in 1000 Days by Muromaki! it's basically just compilation of short yuri comic that Muromaki posted on Twitter & people were angry after they found out Muromaki create age-gap of student x teacher OC lol.
also another one I remember is Tower of Campanella mangaka has side account where they draw a lot gangbang noncon shit and twitter himejo were furious about it (after they're hyping the series lol)

[himejoshiheart]

jeez... what happened to mlm wlw solidarity and yuri/yaoi solidarity? as a hime myself i wish all my toxic fellow himes to shut the fuck up.

honestly the idea of Having to make femslash for whatever reason has been in fandom a long while, even here on dreamwidth iirc (fucking "eating your veggies incident" bruh)

I suppose it is annoying if youre the only one in a specific thing, but toxicity isnt the answer.

[michifugu]

Ikr, like genuinely, this whole “you should make X content because they lack content or rep” is dumb as hell. Because in the first place, the reason people make fanworks (fanfic & fanart) is because they LIKE their ship and characters. So obviously they’re gonna make their own food! It just happens most of those are M/M (or M/F) because, well, the majority of people making fanfic and fanart are women, and most women like men. (Yeah, I know queer people exist too, but I’m speaking broadly here, fact is, fanfic spaces are still dominated by cis women.)

But that’s not the problem, and the lack of femslash is not the fault of women writing yaoi smut. People forget that most of the time fan content gets made either because they're horny or for escapism. It’s not that deep, honestly.

And honestly, most fujoshi communities have always been super friendly toward yuri even back in the 2000s. There’s a reason so many yuri fans back then liked hanging out with fujoshi (and sometimes ended up becoming fujoshi themselves, or already were). That’s why it’s so disheartening to see this BL vs. Yuri nonsense now. like, we should be angry at dudebro who keep harassing shipper

[himejoshiheart]

yeah like. iirc a lot of fujoshi are queer, the stereotypical fujoshi in japan is a lesbian, and part of the appeal of m/m to fujoshi is not relating too hard to the men involved?

also yeah, yuri yaoi dual citizenship is a thing. I'm not getting my himejoshi card revoked just because I drew two guys kissing

anyways yeah, we should have hime fujin solidarity against homophobic dudebros

[shamanicshaymin]

THIS. I hate how gatekeepy and performative yuri fandom has become, and I'm so blessed to be friends with himejoshi who don't treat me like garbage for wanting my lesbians toxic or liking BL. Why does everything have to be made into a goddamn fight? We need to stand together against homophobic chuds, not eating our own.

[himejoshiheart]

YEAH like. the gays who did Stonewall together would not want us infighting actually

[michifugu]

a lot of older queers definitely don't and the interesting thing I read is that lesbian separatism/political lesbianism were one of the earliest LGBT infighting and what coincidence those movements ended up being TERF & Radfem breeding ground. And we know how most infighting in queer communities were caused by those two groups. Especially, radfem & terf ideology has such big influence within Kpop-sphere, it's no wonder why a lot of young yuri fans nowadays like to use radfem talking-point.

[michifugu]

exactly! we should fight those homophobic dudebros &c huds who keep harassing shipper.
sometime, a lot of young himejos don't realize that there are plenty of yuri by being BL fans first and know their exposure of yuri through BL community/series.... demonizing fujoshi is just so counterproductive