How Discourse ruined ”Internalized Misogyny” & ”Sexism” discussion in Fandom

[michifugu]

Since i’m always rambling about this stuff on both my Tumblr and private account. It’s honestly a mess, and I’ve been contemplating whether or not to write this because, frankly, I don’t want to invite more discourse. But after giving it some thought, I decided I wanted to write it, as I feel that by doing so, I can better articulate my thoughts on this subject. I’m definitely not the only one who feels this way. Without further ado, let’s dive into the topic.

If you’re active on Twitter, you’re probably familiar with the discourse surrounding anti-fujoshi sentiment and fangirls who love male characters/husbandos (I’ll refer to them as Yumejoshi for convenience). This discourse often emphasizes that both Fujos and Yumes exhibit internalized misogyny because they ‘favor’ or center their interests around fictional male characters.

 

I cannot stress enough how exhausting and harmful that kind of mindset is. It feels like the whole thing is being co-opted or psyop’d, because any discussion about internalized misogyny and sexism in fandom no longer focuses on issues like ”how women don’t feel safe in fandom spaces still dominated by men, how women’s interests are still mocked by men, how sexism is still rampant in geek/otaku spaces, how most men don’t take women seriously when they share similar interests, how mansplaining is still prevalent, how sexual harassment toward women is still common in fandom spaces, why women feel safe exploring/expressing themselves through fictional male characters, how women seek escapism from patriarchal society through fictional male characters or how teen girls are vulnerable targets for groomer & creepy adult men.” Instead, it’s “WTF my yuri ship & fav female chara doesn’t make it into the top 5 AO3 ????? and what do you mean a lot of yaoi ships dominate AO3?????? why a lot women only cares about 2D men???. how dare these filthy rotten fetishizer fujos and dumb yumejos only create content of fictional male characters! what a sexist scum, urgh women AM I RIGHT?? idiot women centering men”

It’s just, sorry, so freakin’ dumb and shallow, not to mention subtle misogyny insult there. there’s so much thing to unpack here but first let’s focus on Internalized Misogyny aspect and WHY I’m against at the sentiment that women who fawning at 2D male characters are responsible for sexism in fandom & how there’s need of nuance to discuss about Internalized Misogyny when it comes to Yumejoshi & Fujoshi (why we need to see it through sympathetic lens instead of being judgemental).

First, let’s see what’s Internalized Misogyny definition cited from Wikipedia & academic journal:

Internalized sexism is a form of sexist behavior and attitudes enacted by women toward themselves or other women and girls – Wikipedia

Internalized misogyny is when women subconsciously project sexist ideas onto other women and even onto themselves. – Samantha Anthony/ Nina Cherry (UMKC)

Women who experience internalized misogyny may express it through minimizing the value of women, mistrusting women, and showing gender bias in favor of men. Women, after observing societal beliefs which demean the value and skills of women repeatedly, eventually internalize those misogynistic beliefs and apply them to themselves and other women – Wikipedia

That’s the broad definition of it and as far I’m concerned I don’t think Women who fawning over fictional men (yes including the fujoshi & yumejoshi) are considered as one. I know what’ you’re thinking because you’re focused on the ”showing gender bias in favor of men” part, However, In my opinion fujoshi & yumejoshi, just because they tend to favor fictional men it doesn’t guaranteed they’re having internalized misogyny toward REAL LIFE women. I want you to know that when Internalized Misogyny term was invented and being used in academic background it mostly always referring the attitude of women who are being sexism/enforcing harmful patriarchal gender roles toward other women, REAL LIFE WOMEN. I don’t doubt that Yumejoshi & Fujoshi does have some internalized misogyny to some extent, but it not what you think it is a.k.a not what the online discourse think it is.

It’s really painful how this term and discussion are now being co-opted by shitty online discourse which mostly stem from shipper (especially Yuri/ FxF shipper) and Female-characters fans just being salty toward fujoshi because most BL/ MxM ships/Male Characters content dominate AO3 tag or being popular in fandom space and how most female fans within otaku or fandom space tend to prefer male characters over female characters. Sure you can be frustrated that your ship or fem characters aren’t popular but it’s not the fault of women? fujoshi & yumejoshi prefer male characters are definitely not the problem. I would say that it’s more of symptom than the cause because the root of problem is how most female characters in mainstream & popular media tend to geared & written to appeal for men, which make it harder for women to relate to some fictional female characters (this is why guys, read niche media & not just consoom mainstream shounenslop. broaden your view by reading & watching genre targeted toward women (Joseimuke, Shoujo, Josei,etc) or a work that’s created by female author regardless of the genre, support them!). Back to the topic, majority of female otaku or fangirl most of time they like male characters because majority of them attracted to males because yes heterosexual made up a large portion of population. it as simple as that & it’s not that deep.

However, if you want to go deeper, there’s another perspective: many women find solace in fictional male characters and seek escapism through them because of the amount of misogyny they face in real life. People forget that we still live in a patriarchal society, where misogyny is prevalent in our daily lives. There are countless cases of women being abused, degraded, and devalued by men. As a result, these women seek comfort in fictional men, who aren’t real, allowing them to explore their sexuality without having to directly deal with men in real life.


 

You could even say that these women (Fujoshi and Yumejoshi) may be victims of internalized misogyny, and it manifests more like a form of self-loathing rather than being the perpetrator a la Traditional Mom in Conservative Family. Internalized misogyny can manifest differently depending on one’s social, cultural, and political identities. This can result in a lack of self-esteem, body shame, shame regarding one’s sexuality, and an inability to freely express themselves due to the standards set by a patriarchal society. Fujoshi & Yumejoshi may having go through this & by using fictional men as their outlet for seeking comfort or expressing themselves.

It’s really painful to see how people, most of the time, tend to be dismissive or, even worse, judgmental toward these women instead of trying to be open-minded. I’m not saying you cannot criticize women (though there’s point to be made how women generally tend to be harshly criticized or being put in pedestal if they’re having certain interests or flaw), but more often than not, people who condemn or criticize women who obsessed over fictional men tend to be judgmental, leading to the policing of women’s interests and making extreme assumptions, as if these women are somehow responsible for contributing to misogyny in fandom spaces—which is absolutely ridiculous.

Like, when we call out or criticize women for internalized misogyny, it’s often directed at women who are perpetrators of these values toward other women—such as, the Trad Mom who insists on their daughter to caring about appearance to be ‘palatable‘ for marriage, women who victim-blame other women who are survivors of sexual assault, or obsessive fangirls who harass/bully other women for dating their favorite male celebrity.

However, most Fujoshi and Yumejoshi aren’t even perpetrators. Sure, there are annoying Fujoshi and Yumejoshi who act toxic, like harassing other ships or characters in favor of their male characters, and we should rightfully criticize or call that out. But, most of the time, people act as if Yumejoshi and Fujoshi are Agents of Patriarchy simply because they prefer male characters or ships over female ones—which is just absurd. Even the toxic Fujoshi and Yumejoshi who are being annoying toward female characters are , more likes, just teen girls being annoying rather than being sexist toward real women in a way of Trad Mom does. and they will grow out of that phase once they grow up/matured, anyway.

I just really wish people can have an semblance of nuance & perhaps, empathy when we wanted to have discussion about these topic. Because you cannot just ”ew, fujo & yume are so male-centered! clearly they’re sexist scum and internalized misogyny!” that just freakin’ dumb and you aren’t feminist for dunking Fujo/Yume, you are just faux feminist. Because it’s clear you just want to looks morally superior and feels better for stomping them rather than you are *actually* cares about real women and actual internalized misogyny issue. Also, Women who are obsessed with 2D men or BL aren’t always doing so because they have internalized misogyny, it might be they’re just straight women who (of course) likes men or find anime boys is hot in general. and that’s fine! Sometimes not everything need convoluted justification. as long they’re just minding their business and not harming anybody, who cares?

Another grip I had with this discourse is how recently most sexism discussion in fandom spaces always revolved around bashing women fangirling over male characters, while there are a lot of recent cases how young girls in fandom space being victims of grooming/sexual harassment by creepy adult men, popular male content creators openly mocking women interests which makes it hard for a lot of female fans & creator to express themselves, & how there’s growing sentiment of women being the ”reason” why most media nowadays getting suck, but yeah continue to act that Fujoshi & Yumejoshi are the Agent of Patriarchy and Extremely Sexist than Men who keep being asshole toward women for just existing in fandom spaces & mock women interests since day one.

For me, the problem with this discourse is that there is a disturbing trend among young fans nowadays: they see fanworks made by fans as “a mere number,” and the worth of their OTP and characters is judged by how much content their fave get. It just makes me disgusted that they’re using fanworks and treating them as commodities to fuel their mindless fandom wars and drama.

Lastly, If you want to ”both sides” this or ”We can discuss both because both nasty fujos & men are bad!”, ask yourself this and think with a rational mind:

Between “a grown ass man posting deranged rants on Reddit about why women ruin everything they touch, parroting culture war rhetoric and mumbling why pandering to women is a mistake” and “a teenage girl tweeting that she dislikes & being annoying to a female character because she just wants to see more screen time for her 2D husbando & yaoi OTP“—which one is worse and contributes to misogyny more?

If your answer is anything but the former, I will just dismiss any of your opinion & will never ever listen to your opinion about misogyny/feminism. You are fraud, thanks!

Thanks for reading this article & I hope you liked it even if my writing are flawed (I’m ESL orz). Please do not think this article as some sort-of Gospel or anything. Because this is just my personal opinion on this matter & I just want to articulating my thought better on these topic. Hopefully, people can be more open-minded and perhaps be more nuanced on this subject. If you still disagree/not convinced, fine, just leave these women alone & block ’em.