[Rant] persona fans being annoying

[michifugu]

Sometimes, it's annoying to see tenderqueer zoomer Persona fans act like Persona is this ~queer~ friendly series while dismissing other JRPGs for not being queer enough. for example, Xenoblade.
Look, I have no issue if you think Persona is gay as hell or has a hidden queer agenda or something. But acting like it's the most queer video game series out there, when the franchise has multiple instances of homophobic rhetoric and stereotypes, is fucking annoying. Especially when these same zoomer tenderqueer Persona fans have the gall to call other JRPG titles "not queer enough."

In the case of Xenoblade, it's funny to me. Yeah, Xenoblade is straight as fuck, but I’ve never seen the game include queerphobic talking points or stereotypes. Most queer-coded characters in Xenoblade are also depicted in a very sympathetic manner.
Fujobait and yuribait Xenoblade ships mog any so-called "queer" representation in Persona. To the point, I think I find more meaningful LGBT portrayal from freakin' Xenoblade yaoi/yuri bait undertones.

It's so weird how zoomer Atlus fans want to convince themselves that their favorite series is queer-friendly, when almost every Atlus series has a lot of homophobic undertones. Even P2 has a transphobic NPC.
Like, I have no problem if they enjoy the series or want to see queer readings in it. But most of them seem to be in denial or unable to accept that parts of Persona or Atlus games do have queerphobic undertones more so than, say, the infamous XB3 baby scene.

I wouldn’t give a shit if these people didn’t act so smug and holier-than-thou toward other JRPG series, lol.

Comments

[captaincassidy]

I think it's weird how people in the west pick and choose which Japanese/Eastern media has "good queer rep" and which is all badwrongevil. Persona 4 is one of those instances people talk about being "great rep for trans men," but the character is not a trans man? And her gender expression and storyline is based on Japanese themes, which people in the West do not understand at all. Like trying to explain that no, "otokonoko" does not translate 1:1 with "trans woman" in English, it's its own thing! But the cultural erasure is real...

But I'm saying that as a trans dude who loved Catherine, so, perhaps I am the terrible one. XD

>>>"It's so weird how zoomer Atlus fans want to convince themselves that their favorite series is queer-friendly, when almost every Atlus series has a lot of homophobic undertones."

So much this, but expand "Atlus fans" to "western fans of animanga/manwha/anything not made by westerners"

[michifugu]

The Persona 4 one is funny because Naoto isn't exactly trans-coded, even in the writing. There are a lot of issues with her writing, but to me, she doesn’t feel trans-coded—she's supposed to tackle misogyny within Japanese society. but that's miss in the wests I guess

The otokonoko trope is also pretty nuanced. While I do feel there are certain trans readings and elements in many otokonoko media and characters, Western people conflating it as the same thing is pretty frustrating in general. Especially whenever there's a Japanese crossdressing anime/manga, they always get angry that it’s not explicitly trans or something, which is just ignorant and egoistic imo, every country/cultures has its own idea of gender expression and transness.

I don’t like the sentiment that a crossdressing/otokonoko character navigating or questioning their gender but still identifying as "cisgender" means it's trans erasure or something because that’s just dismissive of other gender expressions. There’s nothing wrong with cis people wanting to explore their gender, and I think it’s good if we have more media involving cis people questioning their gender or having unconventional gender expressions that don’t conform to heteronormative and patriarchal standards. Especially in a conformist society like Japan, it’s important to have media that explores such topics, it might help to normalizing any form of genderqueer expressions/identity including transness, and it’s so annoying to see Westerners act like it’s trans erasure or that Japanese media is transphobic like wtf....

Hahaha, it's okay! I'm also enjoying some works that was made by queerphobic or has homophobic element, it's shame, but I guess it can't be helped because homophobia still dominant force in the world. as long you're acknowledging it, that's fine (I see a lot of western queer anime fans always do this that they couldn't accept if their favorite series has homophobic element or stuff).

and funniest is, this same Western fans always dissing BL & Yuri as ''fetishizing'' & ''problematic" but clamoring over media geared for straight people that is homophobic lol

[captaincassidy]

No but, really, you took the words out of my mouth. And put them in much better order than I could! It seems to boil down to westerners just not knowing (or accepting) jack shit outside of their narrow little world view. I’m sure I’m guilty in some ways, too, but it sure is a pain.

>>> “Hahaha, it's okay! I'm also enjoying some works that was made by queerphobic or has homophobic element, it's shame, but I guess it can't be helped because homophobia still dominant force in the world. as long you're acknowledging it, that's fine (I see a lot of western queer anime fans always do this that they couldn't accept if their favorite series has homophobic element or stuff).”

Yup! We live in that world, we have to acknowledge that this sort of thing is dominant. We can criticize it (and should!) but ignoring it is stupid. Like all the BNHA fans who treat it like it’s queer rep when… um… I’m not sure where they’re getting that? The one explicitly (?) queer character comes out (?) as bi, and that was the peeping tom iirc. But fans of the really big series are usually a little… odd, I think. Or maybe not “odd” but “oblivious?” I’m unsure.

>>>” and funniest is, this same Western fans always dissing BL & Yuri as ''fetishizing'' & ''problematic" but clamoring over media geared for straight people that is homophobic lol”

screams endlessly about seeing people say “BL” is “good rep” and “yaoi” is “problematic rape fetish only”

I hate BL/GL discourse, westerners shut up challenge /lighthearted

[michifugu]

Yeah,at the end of day it's westerners trying to project or forcing their standard on other cultures.

I feel that most western shounen fans especially if they're zoomer or tenderqueer seems cannot internalize the fact that whenever shounen series or anime/manga in general having subtle homoeroticism or Fujobait/Yuribait it was mean to appeal for shippers (fujoshi & yuri fans) not for queer representations & they love to conflating this as same things, that's why if their favorite yaoibait/yuribait ship aren't canon they call the author queerbaiting them (which is dumb) & it's not even queerbaiting (imo it's more like queer-coded), when most mangaka who did this never try to advertise it for lgbt representation a la hollywood queerbait. And most of the shippers also never expect their ships to be canon anyway & they're just happy to get crumbs.

Really hate how westerners thinks yaoi and BL are different when they're same thing , plus nobody in japan use ''yaoi'' anymore, it was old as hell. Just like most westerners still think all BL are like 2000s yaoi hand.
I agree that westerners should shut up about asian media lol

[captaincassidy]

I think there's some genuinely interesting exploration of queerness we see uniquely in animanga (and any Asian or non-western media) that can and should be acknowledged, but yes, the yaoi/yuribaiting is... well, it's a marketing tactic. I was talking about this with Get Backers the other day, which has some of the most prevalent yaoibaiting I've seen, personally. XD It seems, for a variety of reasons, "coding" characters in eastern media is much more common than what we see in western Hollywood, likely because overt portrayals would be met... poorly. Not to say there aren't some out there; I've seen a slew of explicitly-queer manga in my local bookstore in the last couple of years. And since we only get a tiny fraction of what is put out in its native language, I can only assume (or hope) that there are more explicitly-queer works being made.

Yeah... I will still say yaoi for funsies, but to think it's something people in Japan use? Or worse, pretending it's different from the modern term BL... ugh. I see on MyAnimeList all the time "recs of BL but NO YAOI." Like, you dumbass! Speak to ONE non-American person, I'm begging you!!

By the way, when you use "tenderqueer," what does that mean? I've seen a couple places saying "white nb/afab hipsters who weaponize social justice for harm/to not take responsibility," and saw one tumblr post (here) about it. But it's a new term to me. o:

[michifugu]

Yeah, queer-coding is pretty common in many Asian media, so they can easily slip in some queer characters or narratives to pass/fly under the radar of most people, publishers, or companies, since LGBT themes are still not well accepted in many Asian countries, hahaha.
There are a few canon/explicit LGBT characters in many manga that aren’t labeled as BL or Yuri, but it’s not so much that they’re rare—it’s more that you need to look hard because most of the time they get serialized in very niche or underrated magazines/publishers.

LMAO, yeah, I also sometimes use yaoi just for fun, and I haven’t visited MAL for... a decade, but I’m guessing most of those people aren’t very well-versed in BL culture and the industry.

I think the Tumblr post you linked already explained enough about what "tenderqueer" is. For me, it generally refers to any young/hipster Westerner who uses/weaponizes marginalized identities or social justice to avoid accountability or play victim-card, which I see a lot of, sadly, on Twitter.

[captaincassidy]

That checks out. I hope I can learn to read a couple of other languages so I can sniff out some of that stuff for myself. There’s so much really cool stuff that doesn’t get serialized, much less a translation!

Fr! ;_;

Gotcha! Okay, just making sure. Yeah I left most socmed because of that kind of shit, and the antis/doxxing/etc. People are just nuts these days.